Complete transparency, except where there is not. A "fundamental" right to legal privilege.
A stand-off over demands to release a key legal note about the May 2020 Ryan Tubridy Renault deal.
And claims "pieces of the jigsaw" have been "stuffed down the back of the couch".
Months after their first interaction, the latest meeting today of the Dáil's public accounts committee and RTÉ management showed little sign of breaking out into a rare moment of civility.
And, while both may have departed the scene, the spectres of Ryan Tubridy, his agent Noel Kelly and former director general Dee Forbes remain - at least partly - the reasons why.
At today's committee, RTÉ's Director General Kevin Bakhurst and Head of Legal Affairs Paula Mullooly were repeatedly questioned over the May 2020 deal between Mr Tubridy's representative Noel Kelly and Ms Forbes.
The deal included a now well-aired decision for RTÉ to underwrite the Renault agreement with its then star presenter.
But crucially, it also involved legal advice given to RTÉ by its legal team - advice which, despite thousands of files being released by the broadcaster, is one of a small number of documents yet to be made public.
It is one small document amid a mountain of others. But, unless it is resolved soon, it is also one big stand-off quickly coming back down the tracks.
RTÉ's position
For RTÉ the situation comes down to a simple legal reality, a position Mr Bakhurst repeatedly raised during today's public accounts committee meeting.
In Mr Bakhurst's view any company, including RTÉ, must be able to receive confidential legal advice when needed and without the risk that this advice will in future find its way into the public domain.
This, he told the committee, is because a company cannot properly function without being able to freely discuss potential legal matters in private and with the benefit of client-solicitor confidentiality.
For this reason, he said that while he remains keen to create "complete transparency" in Ireland's national broadcaster, there will be some cases where he and the organisation cannot due to "legal reasons".
And, while Mr Bakhurst said under questioning that he has not read the May 2020 legal note, he has been told that at this stage it cannot be published.
RTÉ Director General has told the PAC that he cannot provide members with a note related to a meeting in May 2020 due to legal constraints. The Committee heard that TV licence sales were down 39% last week | Read more: https://t.co/f0CEwvZoRw pic.twitter.com/c2mqlYHoBP
— RTÉ News (@rtenews) October 12, 2023
It is a position acknowledged by many within the legal profession, including senior counsel and commercial law expert Bernard Dunleavy, who independently of the Public Accounts Committee meeting, told RTÉ News: "Solicitor-client privilege is an important safeguard to the ability of parties facing complex legal issues to obtain candid advice on what may be difficult questions.
"It is crucial to assisting the resolution of legal problems that lawyers can give clients a 'warts and all' assessment of the obligations and risks which clients face, and that such advice remains confidential to the client.
"Likewise, it is important that clients can give unvarnished instructions for the preparation of such advice without being taken to have made damaging concessions.
"However, it's important to note that the advice which is given is for the benefit of the client, and it is always in the client's gift to waive the privilege which attaches to it."
Ms Mullooly also responded to the issue during today's committee meeting.
Answering committee questions today, Ms Mullooly said while the vast majority of RTÉ documents have been released "there is a small amount of documentation which has not been shared" with politicians and the public due to legal privilege and confidentiality.
Explaining this view, Ms Mullooly said this must be allowed in order "for the functioning of an independent solicitors' office within RTÉ".
Giving examples in a wider context, she said it is "really important" for programmes such as Prime Time to seek and receive confidential legal advice without any concern it may be published at a later date, adding: "This is a fundamental point of principle for RTÉ."
The PAC's response
Fundamental point or not, it is not how the public accounts committee sees it.
Responding to the argument at today's meeting, Fianna Fáil TD for Dún Laoghaire Cormac Devlin described RTÉ's position on the issue as "a bit of a stretch".
And he was not alone.
Fine Gael TD for Cork North Central Colm Burke - who is a qualified solicitor - said in his view releasing the legal note poses "no risk that it might create further claims" against RTÉ and that not doing so puts the broadcaster "more at risk than anyone else" given the need to win back public trust.
Sinn Féin TD for Louth Imelda Munster, Social Democrats TD for Kildare North Catherine Murphy and Fine Gael TD for Mayo Alan Dillon all echoed the remarks, with Mr Dillon saying bluntly "the reputation of RTÉ is on the ground".
Green TD for Waterford Marc Ó Cathasaigh went further, saying the committee is still "looking for pieces of the jigsaw" which have been "stuffed down the back of the couch".
And, underlining the point, Labour TD for Tipperary Alan Kelly added pointedly that "your position will not be tenable" if RTÉ refuses to release the legal note and the issue ends up in the courts.
The latter point is not mere grandstanding, as the PAC is only too keen to make clear, given recent special powers it has been given to help with any investigation into RTÉ.
Alan Kelly has said PAC would seek to compel RTÉ to provide a note related to a 2020 meeting between Dee Forbes and Noel Kelly, adding that if this issue ends up in the courts, Mr Bakhurst's position would not be tenable | Read more: https://t.co/f0CEwvYR1Y pic.twitter.com/5ReBKnR4QE
— RTÉ News (@rtenews) October 12, 2023
In a Dáil motion at the height of the RTÉ controversy in early summer, the PAC has been given the potential right to compel individuals to appear before it and, importantly, to provide relevant documents on a case-by-case basis.
The enhancing of PAC powers was agreed by the Dáil Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight in late June, before the motion to agree the changes was passed by the Dáil in late June.
In the PAC's view, this means it believes it can compel, or effectively force, RTÉ to publish the legal note.
At today's meeting, committee chair and Sinn Féin TD Brian Stanley warned Mr Bakhurst the PAC has received its own legal advice, and that it will consider seeking the right to compel the broadcaster to release the document.
However, in order to do so, the PAC must firstly seek approval from the committee on parliamentary privileges and oversight and - secondly - just as importantly be sure that what it is seeking will be worthwhile for the general public.
Pivotal moment
The differing perspectives mean that, for now at least, a fresh stand-off exists between the national broadcaster and the national parliament.
While not stepping back from RTÉ's clearly stated position, Mr Bakhurst appeared - not for the first time in his time as director general - to keep all options on the table.
"I would like to find a solution to this, but it's, it's tricky. I will happily look at a possible solution," he said.
The comment was mirrored by RTÉ's press office, which in a statement to RTÉ News said: "RTÉ notes the request of the committee to seek a solution and will consider the request."
Whether it leads to any actual change in position is now likely to be the focus of debate.
A reality Labour's Alan Kelly reminded Mr Bakhurst of during a heated moment today, telling him "we're the people who vote on giving you money" and that "this is a pivotal moment for you".
Strong words. And pivotal indeed.
