Journalist and mental health campaigner Bryony Gordon wrote her 2016 book Mad Girl, she told Claire Byrne, because, although she'd heard about other people having mental health issues, she’d never heard anyone admitting it:

"So I wrote my first book – my first book about mental health – Mad Girl, as a kind of way to go, 'If you have this thing too, please, it’s like, come and congregate around the book and we can know that we’re not mad. Or we are mad, but we’re not bad.’"

Bryony has written searingly honest takes on her struggles with alcoholism, OCD and an eating disorder. And an important part of her honesty is showing that real life is not like the movies. The heroine doesn’t overcome her challenge and ride off into the sunset – it's much more nuanced than that:

"I’m trying to kind of show the reality of recovery, you know, from mental illness and mental health issues because a lot of these things are really baked in, you know, over years. Like, I’m sure there are lots of people listening who, you know, we still don’t have adequate mental healthcare across the world, you know?"

The follow-up to Mad Girl is published this month but the title, Mad Woman, uses mad in the more American sense: Bryony is angry about what’s been going on in her life:

"The place I’ve come to with it is I think a lot of mental illness is really appropriate, actually. And by that I mean I think that a lot of these things, depression, anxiety, I mean, all mental illnesses, are kind of your brain’s quite sophisticated way of telling you that something’s not right in your life."

The subtitle of the book is How to Survive a World that thinks You’re the Problem and part of Bryony’s anger is down to the way people suffering from mental health issues are gaslit and made to think that they’re, well, the problem. This is a particular problem for women, with some mental health issues being dismissed altogether or links between menopause, hormones and mental health not being treated seriously.

"I really wanted to write a book about why – that sort of soothed people and said, ‘If you’re feeling this, that’s okay. And actually, it’s not just okay, it’s probably appropriate.’ And I sort of, I worked that out during the pandemic when I was really depressed, but it was the first time in my life that I looked around and I felt like everyone else was depressed too."

That led Bryony to wonder what if the "mad among us" are actually the sanest? What if people with mental health issues are showing up the world in a far more honest way than those of us who don’t struggle with our mental health?

"We know that a lot of mental health outcomes are really heavily linked to income, poverty, race, all of these kinds of things which show up inequalities, you know?"

Claire points out that Bryony felt guilty about seeking help for her mental health issues, something Bryony feels is a natural response, given the way mental health services operate:

"The abiding symptoms of most mental illnesses that they tell you you don’t have them and you’re just, you’re just a bad person, do you know what I mean? And so, I think when we’re in them, it’s very hard to reach out for help and accept that we need help and that we deserve it. And that was very much my experience, even as a mental health campaigner. Even with all the knowledge I have of mental illness. You forget it all when you’re in it."

Writing about the menopause has led Bryony to a not-terribly-inaccurate observation:

"I do think that if men went through the menopause, it would be the only thing we were allowed to talk about. There’s be telly shows presented by like, Jeremy Clarkson or whoever, you know, testing out the latest HRT. So I will keep banging on about it because for me, it’s not just the menopause, it really highlights the issue of hormones and mental health and how absolutely crucial they are."

You can hear the full, marvellous conversation between Claire and Bryony by clicking above.

Mad Woman: How to Survive a World that thinks You’re the Problem by Bryony Gordon is published by Headline.