The future of how we teach the Irish language in schools is under scrutiny.
Almost 60,000 schoolchildren received an exemption from the subject between 2022 and 2023, according to the Department of Education.
Irish remains a core exam subject in schools, but students can apply to opt out in certain circumstances such as if they have learning difficulties, special needs or have lived abroad for long periods.
As part of The Conversation from RTÉ's Upfront with Katie Hannon, we asked two people to join our WhatsApp group to discuss if compulsory Irish should be scrapped in schools. Brenda Power, journalist and broadcaster believes it should be, while Patricia Nic Eoin, solicitor and Irish language translator, says it would undermine the languages' survival.
Brenda Power
I think that compulsory Irish, certainly as an exam subject at second level, is a failed experiment. Over more than half a century it has consistently failed to produce a single generation of fluent speakers of the language, and has reduced our beautiful, expressive, nuanced national tongue to a series of formulae to be learned off and regurgitated by rote.
Patricia Nic Eoin
Hi Brenda, I think 'a failed experiment' is a bit harsh! Expecting that what has been done to date could produce a single generation of fluent speakers is unrealistic. If we want to produce a generation of fluent speakers, we need to increase the supports for the language (both within and outside the school system); revamp how it is taught (increased resourcing at pre-school level) rather than remove it as a compulsory subject.
Brenda Power
I would ask then what is the objective of compulsory Irish, if not to make it a living language and not just another subject to be swotted for points or dodged, by affluent parents who can obtain expert reports excusing their children from Irish — apparently many of those who get exemptions from Irish somehow manage to master other, more useful, European languages. You'd never meet a French person who couldn't speak French and yet very few of us can speak Irish, and only then they're either native speakers or people who have pursued it outside of our educational system.
Clearly, the way we are teaching it at present is failing the language — if a language cannot be spoken then it is doomed.
Patricia Nic Eoin
One of the main objectives of compulsory Irish is to ensure that EVERY child growing up in Ireland receives at the very least a baseline competence in the native language of Ireland. Access to this integral part of Irish culture and heritage is a right and the school system is at present, unfortunately, the only place for many people to learn it. I know, as someone who teaches adults, that having at least the minimum foundation from the school system is a huge advantage to an adult learner.
The difference between teaching someone who has not learned any Irish and someone with at the very least a basic grasp of the language is enormous. The majority of adults wish they had learned more Irish in school, not less. I absolutely agree that the way in which it is taught needs to be reformed.
Brenda Power
I don't think we should settle for baseline competence, if all that means is you can just about translate the phrase 'slí amach' on an exit sign. I'm angry that I have put five children through the education system, they all did higher level Irish and got good marks and I saw them learn off the 'sraith pictiúr' for Leaving Cert as if they were maths theorems to be forgotten as soon as they were no longer useful, and none of them can speak Irish to any competent level.
This is a waste of money, of school time but also a huge disservice to the language. I am all for a fundamental reform of teaching Irish — it should be immersive from Junior Infants, and the emphasis throughout should be on spoken Irish — forcing poetry and literature on kids who can't speak the language is not just pointless but cynical and box ticking.
You can't appreciate poetry in English until you can speak the language, yet we approach Irish teaching from the opposite direction!
Patricia Nic Eoin
I never suggested settling for 'baseline competence'. I believe we should be aiming far higher but used that term in answer to the original question of whether Irish should be compulsory or not. Again, expectations need to be realistic. Given the amount of time and the methods used to teach Irish in school at present it is not realistic to expect a high level of fluency among all students (although many do in fact achieve a reasonable level of fluency).
While your children may not, at present, speak Irish to what you would consider a competent level I am certain that the foundation given to them through the school system would set them up to become competent speakers relatively quickly with some additional effort on their part (i.e. getting comprehensible input from sources such as tv programmes, radio, reading).
I absolutely agree that rote learning is a monumental waste of time. I agree that immersive learning from the earliest stage would be best. I believe part of the problem is that we don't view the teaching of Irish in the same way as that of any other language: at secondary level some time needs to be devoted to teaching the structure of the language as we do with French etc. This is fundamental to building speaking competence.
Brenda Power
If I was Minister for Education, I'd get rid of Irish textbooks entirely at primary level and concentrate on turning out a generation of 12-year-olds who could hold a basic conversation in Irish. I'd have teachers switch between Irish and English in the classroom from day one, and do all the 'fun' subjects, like art, games, story time, through the simplest Irish.
We didn't learn English from books, we learned it by listening and wanting to communicate, so how come that obvious precedent had eluded the Dept of Education forever? At second level I'd continue making it a spoken language first, centre classes on discussing topics that actually interest the kids, so they'll want to participate — have you got your Taylor Swift tickets? Did you watch that 16-year-old dart player? What do you think of the new Marvel movie — but only if they can do so in Irish.
At State exam level, I'd incentivise it with extra points, but remove the compulsory element. Smart kids are running rings around it already, so leave it to those who have a genuine affinity — but make sure no child leaves school unable to hold a conversation in Irish. Anything less, after 13 years of compulsory tuition, is a failure of instruction in any language.
Patricia Nic Eoin
I agree with most of what you say above; and certainly, in primary school emphasis should be on speaking; teaching other subjects through Irish etc. The current programmes (e.g. Bua na Cainte) are indeed more in line with this approach. It's true that we didn't learn English from books — but it's a simplistic comparison, and hard to replicate in practice.
English (or whatever the language of a home is) is taught 24/7 by the guardian to the child, usually on a one-one basis; with input from those adults/children around who are also fluent; where the child has nothing to do but learn the language, and indeed must do so if they wish to survive or interact with the world. It is hard to recreate those conditions in a classroom.
Removing the compulsory element is a kneejerk reaction in my opinion, and entirely separate to the question of teaching methodology. Languages have not been compulsory in the UK beyond the age of 14 since 2004 and this has led to a dramatic fall in those continuing to learn languages.
The removal of compulsory Irish would also damage the perceived value of the language in the Irish psyche and will undermine its survival further. Reform and improvement of the teaching of Irish is required, but not the removal of the compulsory element.
Brenda Power
I'm of the Peig Sayers generation and truly believe the saying that she did more to kill off the language than Cromwell — forcing children to learn a language by studying its grammar and memorising chunks of literature is only defensible if you are happy to settle for lip service to that language — if you want people to actually speak it, you have to engage them from childhood.
If you want them to hate it, on the other hand, force it down their throats on pain of academic failure. I don't see why we have to accept that it's not possible to have Irish spoken in classrooms, unless you are tacitly acknowledging that the Irish tuition in teacher training is equally ineffective.
And I wouldn't necessarily use the English enthusiasm for 'foreign languages' as any persuasive precedent. We have failed to teach our children to speak Irish by making it compulsory, so why not try another approach? It could hardly yield worse results after all!!
Patricia Nic Eoin
Forcing anyone to learn by memorising chunks of literature is indefensible; or by regurgitating prepared essays, or 'sraith pictiúr' on exam day. Yes, the amount of time spent with the language in the early stages (especially pre-school) should be increased.
Yes, the amount of time teachers uses the language in general within the classroom should be increased. Primary school teachers do not have a degree in Irish and the standard varies hugely, from very poor to highly competent.
The standard among teachers needs to be improved - at least one year of primary school teacher training could be done entirely through Irish. We should be careful not to follow the UK example, the dropping of the compulsory element there was not a positive move.
Brenda Power
I'll just come back to my original point - if you spent an hour a day, for 13 years, teaching any trade or skill and, at the end of it, your pupil still hadn't acquired the most basic competence, then by any metric your methods had failed and you'd have to consider a completely different approach. And yet we persist in teaching Irish in the very same way, certainly as far as I could see with my children and expecting different results. And that's Einstein's definition of insanity!
Patricia Nic Eoin
We both agree that the methodology needs reform. Your statements are hyperbolic however: the majority of pupils achieve at least a basic competence, many reach a reasonable standard of competency, and some achieve a high standard of competency.
There is much room for improvement, however. I absolutely agree, and I think there is universal agreement on this, that the way in which it is taught needs an overhaul.
What I don't agree with — the original question — is removing the compulsory element. I think that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
Brenda Power
In conclusion, I would say that hardly any pupils achieve a high level of spoken competence in the classroom alone, and anyone who can speak Irish has learned it themselves outside of school. That is surely proof that the current method has failed. I'm not saying take it out of the schools, on the contrary I say make it an integral part of everyday tuition from Junior Infants onwards, but don't force anyone to study it for Junior or Leaving Cert because, if it was taught and examined properly from an early age, you wouldn't have to — I suspect most French kids here take French as a Leaving Cert subject, and probably do very well!
If children could speak and understand Irish when they entered second level, then they'd be more likely to take it as a subject. But after decades of forcing, it on them, and consequently turning out generations who couldn't exchange two sentences with a native speaker, we need to admit that something has to change.
Patricia Nic Eoin
In conclusion, I would say that I am in full agreement that the methodology needs an overhaul at every level. However, I believe that Irish should remain a compulsory subject to Leaving Cert.
Removing the compulsory element of foreign language study beyond the age of 14 has backfired spectacularly in the UK. More importantly, removal would undermine the importance of the language in the collective Irish psyche.
The perception of the language is important; by removing the compulsory element we would be undermining the importance of the language as a rich and integral part of Irish identity, culture and heritage.
Brenda Power
Thanks Patricia, really enjoyed the exchange. I think we agree on more than we realised!
Patricia Nic Eoin
Thanks Brenda, nice chatting to you!
Watch Upfront with Katie Hannon on RTÉ One and the RTÉ Player at 10.35 this evening where our panel and live studio audience will be discussing this subject.
Patricia Nic Eoin is the founder of online Irish language school All About Irish.
