In recent days, Fine Gael Senator, and former Government minister, Regina Doherty and People Before Profit TD Paul Murphy debated whether Irish politicians have high standards in public office. They did so over WhatsApp, as part of The Conversation from RTÉ's Upfront with Katie Hannon. Ms Doherty believes Irish politicians are appropriately held to account, while Mr Murphy strongly disagrees.
Regina Doherty: I think, on the whole, Ireland has a good standard of professional ethics in politics, good laws and a good transparent system of holding politicians to account if failings occur. There are certainly improvements and strengths that can be made to our standards bodies (such as SIPO) by updating our current laws but, in the main, I think Irish politicians are honest, hardworking, and mostly act in the common good.
We have some notable exceptions in the past (such as the planning tribunals) but, when you look at the mistakes that get amended in Ireland recently in comparison to some of the major tax avoidance in UK and USA or the self-indulgence by former presidents of Ukraine, Nigeria, former Yugoslavia etc, it points to a good system in Ireland and a extremely low level of corruption.
Paul Murphy: But the evidence, for example, in terms of the housing crisis, failure to act on climate, suggests that most politicians have not acted in the common good.
They have consistently acted in favour of the construction industry ahead of people who need a home. That is not mainly because of direct corruption, but because of the thousand strings that tie the political and economic establishment together and give them a common worldview.
In that common ideology of neoliberalism, there is a happy coincidence of profit for developers and the delivery of homes. They persist with that despite all the evidence to the contrary.
That's supposedly why we have those rules. To have ministers breaking them repeatedly is to make a joke of them. And the defence that there are other countries that are worse isn't any defence.
Regina Doherty: You are conflating policy delivery, or the lack of it, with corruption. By anybody’s standards, that’s mad.
Criticism of either policy difference and or of delivery is fine, but don’t conflate corruption on the scale of international standards to your views on a government’s success.
By and large, we have a very low level of corruption, according to the Corruption Index. The missteps that have been reported recently are very mild in terms of international examples of self-indulgence. Humans make mistakes – it’s how they deal with those errors.
What’s interesting about the politics of the last week is that the biggest cheerleaders for reform of SIPO and the legislation wouldn’t let SIPO do its job.
They would rather grandstand in our political chamber, seeking to discredit or damage political reputations. For them, the politics of it are more important than the deliberations and decisions of SIPO.
Paul Murphy: So, given that you want SIPO to do its job, if they find that Paschal Donohoe breached the rules, do you think he shouldn't remain as minister?
You were the one who claimed politicians act in the common good. I am suggesting there is no evidence of that whatsoever. They act in the interests of the people who benefit from all the crises we have, those who are getting rich off them. As James Connolly put it, the government is a committee for the rich. Corruption is a part of how the rich get their interests well represented.
Regina Doherty: When SIPO adjudicates, determinations can be made then. Yet again, you are acting like their process doesn’t matter. Due process is extremely important to most of us.
I’m sure you felt it was important when you were on trial over the Joan Burton incident. If the court of political opinion was listened to, the outcome for you may well have been different. But it wasn’t, as due process was followed – thankfully.
In a referendum a number of years ago, the people decided against giving politicians the power to conduct full inquiries, thankfully. What was shown both last week and previously is that politicians act politically – party politically – and are in a lot of cases only determined to inflict damage.
I genuinely believe that most politicians in their actions believe they are acting in the best interests of the people they represent. It sometimes doesn’t work as well as intended but, mostly, it does work. We have made tremendous progress as a country, particularly since the financial crash in 2008.
A jobs-led recovery. An economy that can support one of the most ambitious National Development Plans in generations, near full employment, and a fair and progressive taxation system. We have got a lot right, but a lot of challenges remain.
To my mind, that means the politicians we have had the best outcomes for citizens in mind – as opposed to themselves.
Paul Murphy: But you refuse to say what should happen if SIPO finds against Paschal Donohoe.
So, your government stands over an ethics watchdog that has no power to actually sanction wrong behaviour. Then you refuse to even say that someone should stand down as minister if SIPO finds that they did break the rules. So much for high standards.
How many ministers have resigned in the course of this government because of ethical issues? I've lost count at this stage.
Regina Doherty: Again, you refuse to let SIPO do the work it was established to do. Whatever outcome they propose will be accepted by all.
The question asked of us is: are Irish politicians corrupt?
Take Sigmundur David Gunnlaugsson, the former prime minister of Iceland who resigned in disgrace after revelations in the Panama Papers or Petro Poroshenko, the former president of Ukraine who wrecked the economy by looting it of €3 billion. You are comparing posters being paid for unknowingly to them.
I don’t. Most politicians I know – government and opposition – are good, hardworking selfless people. I admire the commitment they show. Are they perfect? No. But it seems our bar of corruption is very different.
And you didn’t answer me about if you value due process or not!
Paul Murphy: But SIPO does not have powers because you refuse to give it to them. They cannot propose that a minister resigns.
Sure, I value due process. But I don't accept that due process means that ministers can't be held to account by the Dáil. They are accountable to the Dáil. That is part of due process.
Did you answer how many ministers have resigned in the course of this government?
Regina Doherty: Due process means involving the body appointed to adjudicate – not turning the Oireachtas into judge, jury, etc.
We are paid to legislate. It’s fair criticism that it takes far too long to do anything, including upgrading SIPO legislation, so let’s rectify that now and make it a priority. But let’s keep perspective.
Paul Murphy: I know enough to know that Paschal Donohoe shouldn't be a minister. He has admitted to breaking the rules.
This isn't about throwing up a few posters. It's about the relationship between big business and politicians.
Regina Doherty: What is the relationship between big business and politicians? In our roles as ministers, we meet and interact with relevant people. In my case, it was mostly charities and NGOs. I don’t ever remember being accused of having relationships with big charities in the way you are insinuating.
Paul Murphy: Your government represents big business. You represent big developers. You represent corporate landlords. You represent private businessmen.
That is why, despite being one of the richest countries in the world, we have crises in education, health and people are suffering with the cost of living crisis.
Regina Doherty: Governments represent the people – it’s that simple. Decisions are made and policies are pursued to improve services and quality of life.
Does business benefit for government decisions? Yes, of course they do. In a similar way they benefited enormously from government supports during Covid. The energy grants available now – they are all in place to support and sustain business. I didn’t hear your outcry of cosy relations then.
We are kind of going around in circles here. You throw around allegations and outrage with no substance.
Back to the original question – are Irish politicians corrupt? I genuinely don’t believe so
Paul Murphy: I believe there is lots of evidence all around us of the fact that governments don't represent the majority of people, but big business.
The original question wasn't "are Irish politicians corrupt?" It was about whether Irish politicians have high standards in public office.
My answer is no – we have low standards in high places. Eventually some of you are forced to resign after sufficient outrage, but you take your time going!
Last week we had Paschal Donohoe – you think he should stay as a minister despite the fact that he has admitted breaking the rules.
The Taoiseach himself broke the code of conduct by leaking a confidential document. He only escaped investigation by SIPO in an unprecedented split 3–2 judgement, which decided not to investigate purely on the grounds that he leaked it in capacity as Taoiseach.
Regina Doherty: I think that says it all about the difference in our opinion of politicians – I believe that people who enter public life do so with great ideals, regardless of their political persuasion. I will never be convinced of the merits of socialism, but I can admire the passions and determination of people all the same.
You don’t seem to hold that same regard. That’s a pity.
Paul Murphy: It's nothing personal.
But I think Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have represented the rich – at the expense of the rest –throughout the state's history.
Lots of them have done that without any personal dishonesty or corruption. A fair number have engaged in personal corruption along the way. Charlie Haughey was enriching himself while telling the country to tighten its belts.
So I'm not saying that every TD or Senator for Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael is personally corrupt. I don't think they are.
But I think even those who aren't do not serve the interests of the majority of people in this country.
Regina Doherty: So to finish and I’m not sure you know this – I grew up in Ballymun and Finglas with great hardworking parents and family. I’m third-generation Fine Gael and extremely proud of it.
I don’t quite fit the stereotypical picture you try to paint. The members of Fine Gael are mostly just like my family – hardworking family people who expect a return for their efforts and a society that supports them.
That’s what Fine Gael has always tried to offer when in government and that’s what we will continue to do.
Paul Murphy: For me, it's not about where anyone grows up, nor is it even about their intentions. It's about their actions and who benefits from them.
People can judge Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael from their record and who benefited. I'm sure you will continue with it, all right!
Regina Doherty: You contradict yourself repeatedly, which is hard to counter without going around in circles so I think we agree to disagree about each other party’s and ideologies. Thanks for the chat.
Paul Murphy: I have no idea where you think I have contradicted myself? But no problem. Thanks for the chat!
