Léamh an Rabbi Bleich ar ionradh na Rúise ar an Úcráin agus ar phobal Giúdach na tíre sin, aistrithe go Gaeilge agus á léamh ag Conall Mac Dhonnagáin ar Tús Áite, RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta.

Seo an script ón agallamh i mBéarla agus i nGaeilge

1. Cén tionchar atá ag an ionradh ar phobal Giúdach na hÚcráine?

Is cuid de shochaí na hÚcráine i gcoitinne é an pobal Giúdach agus níl aon cheist ann go raibh an tionchar céanna ag ionsaí agus cogadh na Rúise i gcoinne na hÚcráine ar an bpobal Giúdach agus a bhí ar gach duine eile. Cuireann sé isteach ar shaol gach duine nuair atá cogadh ann. Bíonn gnónna dúnta, bíonn scoileanna dúnta, ar ndóigh, bíonn sionagóga dúnta. Níl aon eitiltí, aon eitiltí sibhialtacha aon áit sa tír – is fadhb iad na gnéithe seo ar fad. Sna háiteanna atá faoi ionsaí, tá an tionchar éagsúil ó chodanna eile den tír. Sna háiteanna atá á n-ionsaí le bagairt forghabhála, cuir i gcás Cív, agus ansin is cás eile í Lviv atá in iarthar na hÚcráine. Fós, cuireann sé isteach ar shaol gach duine mar go bhfuil diúracáin agus buamaí ann agus go bhfuil a saolta curtha i mbaol chomh maith. Go bunúsach, tá tionchar ag an gcogadh ar gach duine.

The Jewish community is very much a part of the general society of Ukraine and there is no question that the attack and the war of Russia against Ukraine affected the Jews in the same way it affected everyone else. Everybody's life gets disrupted when there is a war. Businesses are closed, schools are closed, of course, synagogues are closed. There’s no flights, no civilian flights anywhere in the country – all these things are a problem. In the places that were under attack, the effect is different than other parts of the country. The places that were actually under attack and threat of being occupied, for instance, like Kyiv is one thing, and then Lviv let’s say, which is in western Ukraine, still, it disrupts everyone’s life because there were missiles and bombs and their lives are also put into danger. So basically, everyone is affected by this war.

2. Cé chomh sábháilte is a mhothaigh pobal Giúdach na hÚcráine sna blianta roimh ionradh na Rúise?

Déanaim athrá ar rud a dúirt mé cheana féin, agus sin gur mhothaigh an pobal Giúdach go raibh siad mar chuid den sochaí. Ach go háirithe ó tháinig néamhspleáchas na hÚcráine 30 bliain ó shin. Tógadh scoileanna Giúdacha agus sionagóga i bhfoirgnimh úrnua. Bhí an-chuid scoileanna Giúdacha ar fud na hÚcráine, cláracha teilifíse Giúdacha, nuachtáin Ghiúdacha, agus mhothaigh na Giúdaigh an-chompordach san Úcráin. Ní raibh aon fhrith-Sheimíteachas ar chor ar bith ón rialtas agus mhothaigh Giúdaigh an-an-chompordach ann.

So I would repeat what I said before, and that is that the Jewish community felt like very part of society. Especially since the independence of Ukraine 30 years ago, Jewish schools, synagogues were built in brand new buildings. Many Jewish schools throughout Ukraine, Jewish television programs, Jewish newspapers and the Jews felt very very comfortable in Ukraine and there was no government anti-semitism whatsoever and Jews felt very very very comfortable there.

3. Ceann de na cúiseanna atá tugtha ag Vladimir Putin don ionradh ná go bhfuil gá leis chun dí-Naitsíú a dhéanamh ar an Úcráin. Céard é do thuairim faoi sin?

Ceapaim go bhfuil sé áiféiseach, ceapaim go bhfuil sé soiniciúil, is bréag é. Níl aon fhadhb ag an Úcráin le naitsiú, níl aon fhadhb le faisisteachas. A mhalairt ar fad, sílim, mar a deir an seanfhocal, "aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile". Feicimid anois cad atá ag tarlú, an bealach a bhfuil na saighdiúirí seo, na saighdiúirí ón Rúis tagtha isteach agus iad cineál díreach ag marú daoine go randamach díreach toisc go bhfuil siad ina gcónaí san Úcráin, gan aon chúis eile. Cuimhnigh, thogh an Úcráin Uachtarán Giúdach le farasbarr seachtó trí faoin gcéad agus is tromlach an-an-suntasach é sin. Mar sin, ní dóigh liom gur féidir le haon duine atá ar a chiall cur i leith na hÚcráine go bhfuil sí Naitsíoch agus faisisteach.

I think it’s absurd, I think it’s cynical, it’s a lie. Ukraine has no problem with Nazification, no problem with fascism. If anything, I think that, as they say in English, "it takes one to know one". We see now what’s happening, how these soldiers, the soldiers from Russia have come in and are sort of just killing people randomly only because they live in Ukraine, for no other reason. Ukraine, let’s remember, elected a Jewish president by a 73% margin which is a very very large majority. So I don’t think that anyone in his right mind can accuse Ukraine of being Nazi and fascist.

4. Deirtear go minic gur reisimint Naitsíoch é an reisimint Azov atá lonnaithe i Mariupol. Deir daoine fiú in Éirinn agus i dtíortha an Iarthair é seo. An aontaíonn tú leis an gcur síos sin?

Cathlán Azov – roinnt daoine ann san am atá thart, d’úsáid siad siombailí a d’úsáid na Faisistigh agus is fadhb í sin. Nílim ag rá nach fadhb í. Ach is idé-eolaíocht é an faisisteachas agus is idé-eolaíocht é an Naitsíochas. Ní raibh fadhb ann leis an idé-eolaíocht sin i reisimint Azov le 30 bliain anuas. Ní raibh fadhb ann d’éinne san Úcráin. Níl slí ar bith go gceadóinn é sin a úsáid mar leithscéal don chogadh gan údar seo a thosaigh Putin i gcoinne mhuintir na hÚcráine. Ná déanfaimis dearmad, go bhfuil sé ag gortú, thar aon dream eile, na daoine a deir sé go soiniciúil go bhfuil sé ag teacht chun iad a chosaint, agus táim ag caint go díreach faoi na daoine sin, bíodh siad in Mariupol, in Melitopol, in Kherson, in Kharkiv. Tá sé ag buamáil agus ag marú as éadan. Seo cainteoirí Rúisise a deir sé gur ar mhaithe leo siúd a shábháil atá sé ag teacht. Sin an dream is mó atá ag fulaingt agus á mharú ag Putin agus a airm.

Azov battalion, some of the people there have used, in the past, symbols that were used by the fascists – which is a problem, I’m not saying it’s not a problem. But fascism is an ideology and nazism is an ideology. We have not encountered ever over the last 30 years any of that ideology amongst the Azov battalion. It has never been a problem for anyone in Ukraine and in no way, no way would I allow that to be used as justification for this senseless war that Putin has begun against the people of Ukraine. Let’s not forget, he is, first and foremost, hurting those people whom he so cynically said he’s coming to protect and I am directly speaking of the populations, whether it’s of Mariupol, of Melitopol, of Kherson, of Kharkiv, he’s bombing and just killing indiscriminately. These are people that are Russian speakers whom he said he’s coming to save. They’re the ones that are suffering the most and being killed by Putin and his army.

We need your consent to load this rte-player contentWe use rte-player to manage extra content that can set cookies on your device and collect data about your activity. Please review their details and accept them to load the content.Manage Preferences


5. Cén sochrú síochána a bheadh féaráilte agus cothrom dar leatsa?

Féaráilte agus cothrom? Lig don Rúis dul ar ais abhaile chuig a háit féin. Lig dóibh dul ar ais chuig an Rúis agus lig d’Úcránaigh a saolta a bheith acu agus lig do na Rúisigh a saolta a bheith acu. Níl cúis ar bith ar domhan go mbeadh an cheart ag an Rúis ar chor ar bith, fiú orlach a bhaint ón Úcráin, bíodh sin sa Chrimé, bíodh sin in Donbas. Ceapaim gurb é an rud is cothroime ná go rachadh gach duine ar ais go dtí an áit a raibh siad nuair a shínigh siad an comhaontú sin in Búdaipeist, nuair a ghlac an Rúis uirthi féin cloí le teorainneacha na hÚcráine. Sin an áit a bheidh síocháin fhéaráilte agus chothrom ann. Lig do gach duine dul ar ais chuig a dtalamh agus lig do gach duine meas a léiriú ar chearta daoine eile saol a bheith acu.

Just and fair? Let Russia go back home to their place. Let them go back to Russia and let Ukrainians live their lives and let the Russians live their lives. There’s no reason in the world that Russia should have any right whatsoever to take even one inch of land from Ukraine, whether it’s Crimea, whether it’s Donbas. I think the most fair thing is that everyone goes back to where they were when they signed that agreement in Budapest, where Russia accepted upon itself to respect the borders of Ukraine. That is where the just and fair peace will be. Let everyone go back to their land and let everyone respect other people’s right to life.

We need your consent to load this rte-player contentWe use rte-player to manage extra content that can set cookies on your device and collect data about your activity. Please review their details and accept them to load the content.Manage Preferences


6. Dar leatsa, an bhfuil aon seans go mbeadh síocháin ann aon uair go luath?

I mo thuairim, caithfidh síocháin teacht nuair a thosaíonn daoine ag léiriú measa ar chearta daoine eile a rogha féin a bheith acu agus a saol féin a bheith acu. Níl aon fhadhb ag an Úcráin leis an Rúis, níl aon fhadhb ag an Úcráin le haon chomharsa eile atá aici. Leis an bhfírinne a rá, ní théann tíortha daonlathacha i mbun cogaíochta. Tá fadhb ag an Rúis, agus mhínigh an tUachtarán Putin fadhb na Rúise go soiléir roimh an ionsaí, nuair a thosaigh sé ag éirí cumhach i ndiaidh na modhanna maireachtála a bhí ag daoine sa naoú haois déag. Is é an rud faoi sin ná gurb í seo an t-aonú aois is fiche agus má tá an tUasal Putin ag iarraidh maireachtáil sa naoú haois déag, is féidir leis dul ann, ach ní féidir leis iallach a chur ar an domhan dul ar ais ann leis. Tiocfaidh síocháin nuair a aithíonn an tUasal Putin é seo.

Anois conas a aithneoidh sé é seo? In ceann amháin de dhá bhealach. Bealach amháin ná go músclóidh sé, mar a deir daoine, agus "go n-osclóidh sé a dhá shúil", go musclóidh sé agus go dtuigfidh sé nach é sin an bealach a n-oibríonn an domhan inniu. Ní hionann an t-ord domhanda inniu agus an t-ord domhanda sa naoú haois déag agus tá rudaí éagsúil ó bhí siad an t-am sin. Sin bealach amháin. Agus tuigfidh sé é sin má chloítear a airm agus má chloítear é féin, agus má thuigeann sé ansin nach dtugann a chuid cumhachta an ceart dó le daoine eile a ionsaí. Fiú má tá sé níos cumhachtaí, ní thugann sé an ceart dó le daoine eile a ionsaí. Silím gurb é sin an rud is fearr a bheidh ann agus an bua is tábhachtaí mar má thagann deireadh leis an gcogadh seo, má chríochnaíonn sé le sos cogaidh agus comhaontú síochána, ach nach bhfaigheann an Rúis an rud atá uaithi, nach dtuigeann sí go raibh siad sa mhícheart leis an rud a rinne siad a dhéanamh, ansin ní dóigh liom go bhféachfar uirthi mar shíocháin cheart.

Bhí éagsúlacht idir an deireadh leis an gCéad Chogadh Domhanda agus an Dara Cogadh Domhanda. Ag deireadh an Chéad Chogadh Domhanda, bhí an Ghearmáin an-mhíshona lena gcás. Ní raibh aon duine acu sásta maireachtáil san ord domhanda nua. Bhí siad corraithe faoin mbealach ar caitheadh leo. Bhí siad corraithe faoin mbealach ar tháinig deireadh leis agus ní raibh ann ach síocháin shealadach, agus tháinig an Dara Cogadh Domhanda dá bharr, ach ansin, i ndiaidh an Dara Cogadh Domanda agus faraor na milliúin agus na milliúin marbh, thuig an Ghearmáin, agus thuig muintir na Gearmáine gurb é sin an bealach mícheart le dul agus thóg siad daonlathas ar mheas a léiriú ar chearta daonna agus meas a léiriú ar shaolta daoine eile. Go dtí sin, cé nach raibh cogadh, bhí siad míshona agus bhí siad ar thóir féidearthachta le teacht ar an rud a bhí uathu arís, agus beidh an rud céanna ann anseo leis an Rúis.

Is féidir síocháin a bhaint amach, ach is féidir síocháin a bhaint amach nuair a chloítear an Rúis agus nuair a fhoghlaimíonn siad ón gcliseadh sin nach raibh sé de cheart acu dul i mbun ionsaí ar an gcéad dul síos and nár cheart dóibh a leithéid a dhéanamh arís agus go ndéanfadh a sochaí a athógáil le bheith ina sochaí daonlathach. Múineann daonlathas do dhaoine meas a léiriú ar thuairimí daoine eile. Sin é bun agus barr an daonlathais. Mar sin, dá mbeadh sochaí daonlathach acu b’fhéidir go dtuigfeadh siad nach féidir leo smacht a bheith acu ar shaol gach duine agus nach gá do gach duine machnamh ar an mbealach céanna. Faraor, thóg Putin sochaí neamhdhaonlathach sa Rúis agus sin cuid den fhadhb, den chúis a gceapann siad gur féidir leo an Úcráin a ionsaí.

In my opinion, peace has to come when people begin to respect other people’s right to choice and to life. Ukraine has no problem with Russia, Ukraine has no problem with any of its other neighbours. As a matter of fact, democratic countries don’t go to war. Russia has a problem and Russia’s problem was spelled out very clearly by President Putin before the beginning of the attack now, when he started being nostalgic about wanting to live the way people lived in the 19th century. The thing is that now it’s the 21st century and if Mr Putin wants to live in the 19th century, he can go live there, but he can’t force the world to go with him back there. So peace will be when Mr Putin realises this.

Now how will Mr Putin realise this? In one of two ways. One way is if he will wake up, as they say in English, "and smell the coffee", if he’ll wake up and understand that that’s not the way the world works today. The world order today is not the world order of the 19th century and things are different than they were then. That will be one. And he will understand that if his army is defeated, and if he is defeated, and he understands that his power does not give him the right to attack others. Even if he is more powerful, it doesn’t give him the right to attack others. That I think will be the best thing and the most important victory because if this war is over, ended with a ceasefire and a peace deal, but Russia does not get what it wants, it doesn’t understand that they were wrong for doing what they did, then I don’t think that will be considered a proper peace.

There was a difference between the end of World War 1 and World War 2. At the end of World War 1, Germany was very very, they weren’t happy with their situation. Nobody, they weren’t willing to live in a new world order. They were upset at the way that they were treated. They were upset at the way it ended and it was only a temporary peace, which led to World War 2 because then, only after World War 2 and unfortunately so many tens of millions of deaths, did Germany understand, and the German people understand that that was the wrong way to go and they built themselves a democracy based on respect of human rights and respect of other people’s lives. Until then, even though there was no war, but they were not happy and they were looking for a possibility to get back to what they wanted, and the same thing is going to be here with Russia.

Peace is possible, but peace is possible when Russia is defeated and they will learn from that defeat that they had no right to attack in the first place and that they should never do a thing like this again and rebuild their society to be a democratic society. Democracy teaches people to respect other people’s opinions. That’s what democracy is all about. So when, if they would have a democratic society maybe they would understand that they cannot control everyone’s life and not everyone has to think alike. Unfortunately, Mr Putin built a non-democratic society in Russia and that is part of the problem of why they think that they can attack Ukraine.