EMERGENCY SERVICES FOR THE DEAF - DAY ONE

Emergency Services Causing Major Concern Amongst the Deaf Community

There is no 999 service for the people of the Deaf Community. One hundred and eighty five thousand people in Ireland are hard of hearing. So what does the Deaf Community do when attempting to communicate with the 999 emergency services. In a unique broadcast Joe Duffy speaks with guests from the Deaf Community using people to sign and interpret for the deaf guest. He invites the listener into the world of the deaf person and their problems.

Tuesday 17th February 2009

Joe Duffy: And texting as we heard yesterday has been a revolution, not just for a significant percentage of the population, but especially for the section of the population that are either deaf or hard of hearing. One hundred and eighty five thousand people in Ireland are hard of hearing. So we've tried to, as I said yesterday, we're trying to work out a way that the people who are raising these issues about (1) that there's no 999 text service, in other words you cannot text 999, you have to be able to speak and hear to communicate with the 999 emergency services. So Bernadette Power is on the line and beside her is Amanda Cogan and Amanda is the signer, Amanda is an interpreter. Bernadette can you explain . . .

Bernadette Power: Hello Joe how are you doing?

Joe Duffy: Good, good. Bernadette can you explain what is the nature of your difference in terms of deafness at the moment?

Bernadette Power: Well back in 1998 my father collapsed and at that stage there was a new Eircom service or what they called a Telecom Éireann service at that time.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Bernadette Power: Which was a text telephone emergency service. And of course I put the phone into, my text telephone at that time it was a different machine, and it rung out. I got absolutely no answer. My father had collapsed on the floor. I panicked, I was here with my mum and my brother John, we're all deaf. And so trying to get through to them. I went back to the normal relay service.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, hmm.

Bernadette Power: And you had to do the whole, go through the whole rigmarole of what's your name and all the rest, and at this stage I was in a complete panic. I was getting no reply from the 999 service. Eventually an ambulance arrived twenty minutes later, my father was taken into St Vincent's and he died the next day. So that was my experience of it. Now four years ago, my mammy collapsed, I arrived home for lunch.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, hmm.

Bernadette Power: Just on a lunch break. I'm at home actually today, sick from work and that's, hence I can talk to you here with an interpreter. But I came home that day, for lunch, and because I had just come through the door, I saw that there was children playing on the road, so I came in, found my mother on the floor, and got the kids in to ring 999. The ambulance came, fire brigade, the whole shenanigans. And just in comparison to that to my father's experience, it was so fast that hearing people have such quick access to it. And we as deaf people don't and you know the scenario that happened to my father then in 1998 was a different story altogether.

Joe Duffy: And . . .

Bernadette Power: And after the funeral, would you believe, after my fathers funeral, we were all here, I got a phone call from the Telecom Éireann 999 service, this is three days later Joe, asking me did I want to contact the 999 service. Now as you can imagine I saw red.

Joe Duffy: My God.

Bernadette Power: And I roared and screamed at them through the text telephone. But that is the experience of deaf people really.

Joe Duffy: Ok Bernadette can I ask you as a deaf person, how important texting is to you in your daily life?

Bernadette Power: Oh Joe it, in my text, I carry my mobile every day, my mobile is my lifeline. I can contact people immediately. If something, for example if my mum is sick, I text my public health nurse, she's brilliant. She texts me straight back to tell me what to do. You know there's, in the South of Ireland, in the Wicklow-Wexford-Kilkenny area they do have an out of hours text service to a GP Service. And my sister lives down in Wexford, and she says it's absolutely fantastic. Now the thing about it is, the optimum would be that there would be a twenty four hour emergency service, whether that would access a doctor's surgery that would then again get in touch with the emergency services for us, or whatever, but to have access to a 999 service immediately, twenty four hours a day is the thing. And for example we don't have that here in Dublin. Wexford have an out of hours service, and the North of Ireland has access to an emergency service.

Joe Duffy: And how big a difference would it, would being able to text 999 make to you Bernadette as a deaf person?

Bernadette Power: Well the thing about it is that it would save any of that added stress. Because you phone 999 service as we all know in an emergency. In an emergency and a stressful situation. So to get immediately through to a 999 service and get an immediate answer back from them, through texting, we've got your call we're on the way, or whatever it is, would really relieve that kind of stress and panic from my perspective. And in the North they have it.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Bernadette Power: So really it has to be, for me it has to be through the mobile phone, through the text telephone, and the mobile phone. At home we have this text telephone called a minicom. And we have a relay service here in Ireland. It's terribly slow, it's cumbersome, it is not modern, it's not up to date. So without access to a 999 service, myself and my brother who are all deaf, are helpless. You see if, I have nieces and nephews who are hearing, and if they happen to be in the house visiting Granny or myself and John their Aunty and Uncle, then that's grand. But that's again, we're dependant.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Bernadette Power: And therefore vulnerable.

Joe Duffy: Ok just let me explain Bernadette to the listeners what we're doing. Bernadette who is communication you're hearing, you're hearing it through the voice of her interpreter Amanda Cogan, but Bernadette Power is profoundly deaf, and obviously she can't hear my questions. But as I am asking the questions Amanda is signing them for Bernadette, and Bernadette in return obviously with great speed and obviously great communication between the two of them, and understanding, Bernadette is signing back and Amanda is putting a voice on those messages. So stay there if you would for a sec Bernadette. Because another person that we want to communicate with is also deaf, and what's been suggested by Elaine Grehan in this circumstance is that she has a signer as well with us, and then I know there's a third person who wants to use a different method and I'll talk to them in a sec. Elaine Grehan good afternoon. Can you tell us Elaine through Louise your signer, can you tell us Elaine what happened your ten month old daughter?

Elaine Grehan: Hi Joe how are you?

Joe Duffy: Good, good.

Elaine Grehan: My name is Elaine. When my daughter was ten months old, she was a bit sick, nothing unusual, she was a little bit sick, and we were living in a flat at the time. We then realised that she started to have a fit, that she was convulsing, and my husband wasn't at home at the time. I had no access to text. I had no fax machine, minicom, nothing, and I hadn't a clue what to do. Luckily my husband arrived just in time. We still couldn't contact him because he is deaf. And we just made Temple Street Hospital where she had her fit, so it could have been a different outcome had my husband not come home on time.

Joe Duffy: How important would a 999 text service, how, I'll repeat that, I'll say it clearly Louise, sorry. To Elaine, Elaine what difference would a 999 text service make to you in your daily life?

Elaine Grehan: Well if we could text we could tell, we could find out advice maybe as we're going on, as what is happening, is going on, maybe have what, maybe have the problem fixed, or they could have told me to take off her clothes and cool her down or bring her outside or put her in a bath or put some more water, they could have had the information while we were waiting for an ambulance, and that could have been the difference in saving her life or maybe not.

Joe Duffy: Ok, Elaine tell us about what happened your friend who was also deaf, when she smelt smoke in her bedroom?

Elaine Grehan: Em it's actually a client, we work in the Advocacy Office in the Irish Deaf Society.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Elaine Grehan: And the client was sitting in a room, and she was half asleep and the doorbell rang, in a flash, and it woke, the light flashed and it woke her up. And when the friend came in they saw that there was smoke, and she hadn't realised because she was actually half asleep on the sofa. And had to run out and call at all the neighbours houses to try and get them out of the house and try to find somebody who would call the fire brigade for them. And they were just lucky that there was somebody in the house, in the apartment block that was able to ring the fire brigade for them.

Joe Duffy: Ok, stay there if you would for a sec Elaine and Bernadette. Just to remind listeners, 51551 is our text number, and the focus of this conversation is the issue raised by the Deaf Community and it's very difficult for them to raise it publicly as you can understand. But the point they are making here today, is that there is no text accessibility for emergency services in the republic. There is in Northern Ireland, but there's not down here. Now the next person I'm going to talk to is Sally Harvis and the way we're going to put the questions to Sally is through typing. I'm going to speak the questions and she will see them coming up on her screen and sally is able to speak. Sally good afternoon, and can you tell me how, how you came to be in the situation you're in today with your hearing?

Sally Harvis: Hi Joe, it's Sally speaking. I was born hearing but over many years I've become profoundly deaf and wear bilateral hearing aids. And they're not the miracle everybody hopes they're for, but they certainly help. I cannot talk on the phone any more, or I can talk, but nobody can hear what I'm saying. I live alone, about three miles outside Kilorglan in County Kerry. And the emergency service numbers are not available as yet by text. We're working on it with SouthDoc at the moment to try and set that up. So at this stage should there be any emergency at home, I have absolutely no way of contacting the emergency services. I would probably have to text a friend who would then make a call on my behalf, hopefully the friends would be around and available to do that. So for me as a service user, this is an absolutely vital link in any emergency whatsoever. And just reading what the other people have been saying before, it is so important to have this set up throughout Ireland. The numbers say that there are one out of ever seven of the population with some for of disabling hearing impairment, which is a huge figure in Ireland. So hopefully they're going to get this up and running as soon as possible.

Joe Duffy: Sally can I ask you again through the screen here, as we type, can I ask you Sally how is it that you can speak but cannot hear, how did you learn how to speak?

Sally Harvis: Joe I'm just waiting for that to come up in text. Em, well I was born hearing.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, hmm.

Sally Harvis: As a child I had chronic ear disease, so I have conductive hearing loss, I also have inherited sensory neural hearing loss, which is a familial thing. So I kind of have a double whammy and I'm not profoundly deaf. If I take my hearing aids out, I live in absolute silence. So technology is really important.

Joe Duffy: What difference has mobile phones and texting made to your life Sally?

Sally Harvis: I'm just waiting for the text again. Oh an enormous difference. When you cannot use texting for instance, you're completely cut off from other people. You become very isolated, many people get quite depressed because they don't have that human communication. And it's not so easy just to pick the phone up and phone a friend or family member and have a chat. You rely on people coming to your door and if you can't hear the doorbell for instance, you still won't get to talk to anybody because you missed that. So the mobile phone and texting has really kept deaf and hard of hearing people in contact with other human beings.

Joe Duffy: Sally a difficult question, what, in itself is it lonely being deaf, as you are?

Sally Harvis: Waiting for the text. Em it can be very lonely. I also think that as deaf and hard of hearing people we can make choices to get out there and to try and be active in any sort of community. It takes quite a lot of courage to get out there and put yourself forward. You get really tired of saying I'm sorry I didn't hear you, can you say that again, because after the second or third time people think well maybe there's something wrong with her as well, she's not only deaf. And so yes it can become very lonely, unless you're proactive about it. But we're all made very differently. And hearing people obviously don't have the experience, so it's difficult for them to understand what out needs are. So we have to explain that, and probably time and time again. Because you cannot see if a person can't hear. You're not in a wheelchair, you don't have a white stick. So people cannot remember always that you have a hearing impairment.

Bernadette Power: Joe?

Joe Duffy: Yes who's . . .

Bernadette Power: Joe Bernadette here.

Joe Duffy: Hi Bernadette.

Bernadette Power: Through her interpreter.

Joe Duffy: Yeah.

Bernadette Power: Bernadette is just saying that you know that is an experience for Sally that it can be quite isolating, being deaf. But actually as a deaf person and a member of the deaf community, and a sign language user, it is a different experience because we use this language, Irish sign language, amongst the community, so it is an awful lot more of a bond, and for Bernadette, saying she lives here with her mum who's 88, she's very happy, deaf woman, has been deaf all her life. She doesn't want to go into a nursing home or anything like that. Large deaf family, because the thing about for us the Power's is communication. And communication through sign language for us, because we were all born deaf. And what we would call native speakers of ISL. And there's eight of us in the family. So actually in another perspective, a different perspective to Sally's, people who were born deaf and are sign language users, wouldn't have that kind of isolation in a day to day perspective, because they have their deaf friends that they sign with.

Joe Duffy: Ok. Stay there if you would all three, back after this break.

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Joe Duffy: And joe@rte.ie and we're talking to members of the Deaf Community about this issue that they've raised about the absence of emergency access, or text access to the 999 service. Obviously they can't hear. Now 51551 text. Shane Hamilton good afternoon.

Shane Hamilton: Good evening Joe.

Joe Duffy: You, Shane what is your story, and you say you were trying to set up a 999 text message service in the Southern area, go ahead.

Shane Hamilton: Yes I am Joe, since last year, since what do you call it, my own experience, what happened to me. Like I'm profoundly deaf myself. I use my hearing aid with a special amplified hearing aid enables me to hear the phone. My wife is profoundly deaf and my four children are deaf, and we're all living in County Kerry, ok.

Joe Duffy: Yeah.

Shane Hamilton: Now one time I had to go to Dublin for my usual meeting with my DeafHear. And at one time I was in a hotel just you know, you know and I got a text message from my wife, she is profoundly deaf, saying that the two girls, the two deaf girls were very sick.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, hmm.

Shane Hamilton: And she was panicking. And I said can you ring your local surgery, see if you can get the number? She couldn't you know, now she's profoundly deaf, she couldn't access this local surgery phone number to see who was on call that night.

Joe Duffy: Because she would have had to ring an answering machine, and the answering machine would have given her a number, but she couldn't hear the answering machine.

Shane Hamilton: Yeah, she couldn't access that, you know. So I said give me the surgery number. And I got the number. And then I rang the surgery. Now bear in mind that I am hard of hearing, you know and I couldn't understand what was the message. I got disconnected, I got the name, but I couldn't read back the number. So I was at my wits end you know staying in Dublin, trying to work out the number, and I rang the number and it turned out to be a totally different number, somebody answered it, it was a wrong number. So I tried again ringing the surgery to see could I get the number. After three or four attempts, and two wrong phone calls, I managed to get the number, so I rang the doctor, I told the doctor about the situation, that my wife needed assistance for my two deaf children that were very sick on the night. And I was at my wits end, like I didn't know what was going on, and the texts were coming back and forth, I mean sometimes the texts would take for ever to come through. And then finally I got through to the doctor and explained the situation about my wife being deaf, she's waiting for, so you know that's what happened that night.

Joe Duffy: And how do you hope to set up a pilot 999 service?

Shane Hamilton: With DeafHear.ie and my role in the Kerry area, I have been in partnership with SouthDoc for the Kerry-Cork area, which I'm hoping to set up some kind of pilot scheme in order to set up a text message service for the deaf and hard of hearing people in Kerry and Cork. Now what do you call it we've been working there now for the last few months trying to get this up and running, like you know, so we're hoping to have a pilot scheme some time in Spring.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, Shane I can tell you we've been on since we got these communications, we've been on to the Department of Communications, who are in charge of the emergency phone services, and they, unfortunately they're unable to supply a spokesperson to speak to you, but what they do say, they sent us a long long detailed statement which I see here on the, which is on my screen. And they're basic argument Shane and I hope I can, Sally I want to put this to you and Bernadette and Elaine, their basic argument is that text messages are not in real time, they are not necessarily received when they are sent. That's their reason for not having a 999 text service. Sally can I come to you. Sally go ahead. Ok is Bernadette there?

Bernadette Power: Yeah.

Joe Duffy: Bernadette ok.

Bernadette Power: This is Bernadette here. And yes it seems excuse, and I, to be honest as a deaf person I am absolutely fed up of Governmental excuses for not recognising our language, our first language ISL. For not providing emergency services etc. But there is a point where a text message is sent, you can get a received message.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Bernadette Power: This is technology. Actually Joe the optimum is to have what we call a video relay service. They have them in America, it is beyond the beyond great. Where you would sit down at a computer and you would see an interpreter, there would be a base where there is interpreters. So I would be able to sign, I'd turn on like Skype or something like that. I'd be able to sign into it.

Joe Duffy: Of course.

Bernadette Power: An interpreter is there. And so I'm able to communicate what's happing in my first language, because remember the first language of deaf people, sign language, is sign language.

Joe Duffy: But given, my point is that given that everyone has a mobile phone, and as you have all pointed out to me, texting is just absolutely brilliant and accessible, can I ask you Elaine, as a deaf person, what do you think of the Department of Communications, no sorry Elaine is gone. Sally again I put it you, the Department of Communications argument that text messages are not in real time, so they're not going to let them be used for 999 calls?

Sally Harvis: I really think that if the network is up and running well, they come through very very quickly. Again I have the problem of living outside a town, and sometimes the network's are not completely down, but they're extremely slow, and I'll get a text sent maybe four or five hours later. So that can be problematic in an emergency. But otherwise I think if you're in a city it's not so much of a problem.

Joe Duffy: Ok let me bring Niall in, 51551 text. Niall good afternoon.

Niall: How are you Joe?

Joe Duffy: Your parents are profoundly deaf?

Niall: That's right yeah.

Joe Duffy: And just tell us what difference a 999 text service would make to you and your family?

Niall: Well I mean it would make a vast difference, because I can only echo what everybody else has said in respect of like, also as the Department of Communications, surely if it's the best we have, we have to go with the texts. Because really that's all they have to go with.

Joe Duffy: They say `the nature of the emergency services is that it is too serious a business to have any delays or to mislead the public'.

Niall: Well it's such a serious business it's also the best we have, you know. And that's what we have to go with.

Joe Duffy: And at the minute as we heard from Bernadette, Elaine and Sally, at the minute they're efforts to contact, be it in a serious situation, doctors or an emergency situation the fire service or the Gardai, there's extraordinary delays under the current system.

Niall: Absolutely, well I mean my father was in an accident a while back. A taxi driver reversed back onto him, and the taxi driver had to use my dad's phone to ring my sister. And that was the only way of getting a communication across. So she could go up to the hospital and interpret for him.

Joe Duffy: And as your parents get older?

Niall: Well they're in their mid seventies now as I said. And they're on their own as such, you know what I mean I don't live next door to them. So I can't get down to them that much. So really you have your phone on you all the time.

Joe Duffy: How much of a difference has texting made?

Niall: It's changed the deaf world. It really has.

Joe Duffy: Has it yeah?

Niall: All the kids have them where I work as well. I work in a deaf school, St Joseph's. all the kids have it. And you'd be surprised. I mean we're running a, running an annual Mid-Term Spring Camp for kids that are in mainstream schools in St Joseph's. And I'd be surprised if any child turned up at that didn't have a mobile phone.

Joe Duffy: So, and it's worth getting a glimpse of that for all, for those who have mobile phones, to try and get a glimpse of what, if you know what a mobile phone, the difference texting makes in your life.

Niall: Ah the speed they text at as well is unbelievable.

Joe Duffy: I know, I know, I know.

Niall: You can imagine. They're on the phone all the time to their friends, to their parents, all sorts. It's fantastic.

Joe Duffy: Ger is on the line. Ger good afternoon. Thanks indeed Niall.

Niall: Ok take it easy.

Joe Duffy: Thanks indeed and points well made, thanks indeed. Ger good afternoon. Ger is in Castlenock in Dublin, 51551 text, are you there Ger? Sally you're still there, I know you wanted to come in on a point, let me go back, you wanted to comment, because I see you've texted on the screen to me here. Sally, people who lose their hearing don't fit into a box. They're caught between deaf and hearing world. What do you mean by that Sally?

Sally Harvis: Well being born hearing and learning to speak, I lived in a hearing world, and I still do live in a hearing world.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, hmm.

Sally Harvis: However, I have learned quite a bit of signing, and I work with a lot of people who are deaf and use sign as their first language. And I can see that they are a community in their own right. They have their own humour and it's great to see them communicating. I don't quite fit in there, because I don't communicate fluently in their language.

Joe Duffy: Through signing.

Sally Harvis: And I don't quite fit in the hearing world any more because being out with a group of friends is very difficult because you can only manage one, well I can only manage one on one in most cases. Add to that a little bit of background noise, or standing around in a pub, I'm completely lost, because I cannot hear. So my primary form of communication is actually lip reading. And if I close my eyes and I blink I'll miss words, so I have to face the person I'm speaking with. I have to have light on their face in order to communicate and all these added things cause quite a lot of stress, and you become extremely tired from trying to communicate mainly through my eyes. And there are many people in that position. So you're neither completely hearing and you don't belong in the deaf culture area either. So you're caught between sometimes.

Joe Duffy: Ok I understand that point. Stay with us if you would Sally, stay with us if you would Bernadette, and stay with us if you would Elaine, because I really think it's a fascinating and such a rare rare glimpse we're getting into a different world, and obviously when I say we, I'm always worried about using the word we in any context, but we I mean people who listen to Liveline obviously people who are profoundly deaf might be able to get a transcript, which actually we're doing as we speak of today's programme for the deaf community if people want to spread the word around. And we hope to have that up as soon as possible so people can read. We don't want to exclude anybody because you're including us in your world today, and we're very blessed that you've let us in. Ger good afternoon.

Ger: Hello Joe, good afternoon.

Joe Duffy: You want to make a . . .

Ger: Well I think Sally has probably said everything I was going to say, but probably expressed it far better than I ever could. One of, my daughter is now twenty four and at the age of fourteen she lost her hearing.

Joe Duffy: Oh God.

Ger: And she's profoundly deaf. And I . . .

Joe Duffy: What happened her Ger?

Ger: She had a brain tumour.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Ger: So I think Sally has said everything. But the isolation is horrendous. When you've had hearing and lived in the hearing world you know what you've lost. And that's a big problem. And I think also depression comes in with it, because you're looking at what you've lost all the time. And perhaps because she you know lived in the hearing world, her friends are still hearing people, and through no fault of theirs, they really don't understand how difficult it is to lip read. You need the good light, you need to be looking at people, it's exhausting. And it limits the number of places you can go with people, because you can't lip read in a pub, or also if there's background noise, even though you don't hear it, there's vibration which makes lip reading very much more difficult.

Joe Duffy: And Ger, how does your daughter, how do you communicate with your daughter and vice versa?

Ger: She lip read me quite well.

Joe Duffy: Ok, I presume she uses texts as well?

Ger: Without the texts, the mobile phone she would be lost, and I think very much more depressed and more isolated. When she lost her hearing in 1998, we bought her a mobile phone. One for her, one for me and one for a friend. And at that stage texting wasn't at all as common. Whereas now they all text. And it is great. It's also from a safety point of view, I'm not just talking about the major disasters, or you know something like a fire or whatever, but if I'm collecting here or just small problems in the house, she can text me to come back, you know, if I'm out of the house and there's a problem here, sort of mini problem, day to day problems, I get a text and I can get back promptly.

Joe Duffy: And Ger you made the point, and I want if we can, I want to type this to Sally as well. To hear this question. To read this question. And that is that your daughter was, had hearing up to fourteen.

Ger: Oh she was perfectly happy until 1998 yes.

Joe Duffy: And does she say to you, I miss this most or that most?

Ger: Oh she does yes.

Joe Duffy: What does she miss, can I ask?

Ger: Em well she misses music hugely, and she also, I'm wondering about Sally, she forgotten, I mean she's often said she'd love to hear me say `I Love You'. So yeah she does miss hearing. And just the day to day trying to cope out in the hearing world. And Sally did mention something which is very true, she doesn't really belong in either camp if you follow me.

Joe Duffy: Because there is people who are born as Bernadette pointed out, people who are born deaf in Ireland and have deaf families, there's a sign language. And there is a . . .

Ger: Yeah they have their own community. She has leaned some sign and we both can sign a little bit, just basically. But in fact she can't lip read deaf people because their speech is different, if you follow me. You know the formation, the way they form their words and everything, because they've never heard, it's different. So she would have difficulty lip reading a deaf person. That is the situation, possibly difficult to explain.

Joe Duffy: Stay there a sec Ger. Bernadette can I ask you, sorry I'll ask Elaine first. Is Elaine still there? Elaine can I ask you as someone who's profoundly deaf, what would you like to hear most?

Elaine Grehan: Em in life do you mean?

Joe Duffy: Yes.

Elaine Grehan: Em there's nothing I was born deaf and I've never had, I've never heard sound before, so I mean I can't have anything to miss, you know.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Ger: Well I think that's the point, she has nothing to miss.

Elaine Grehan: It's like asking a hearing person how would you feel if you became deaf, you just know you don't want it to happen to you, you know.

Joe Duffy: Ok Elaine I take your point, Joe that was a stupid question, I take your point. I'm sorry I'm stumbling here. By the way I am, I'm getting some glimpse, one into this fascinating world, which is our world, but also I'm getting some glimpse through what Ger is saying, that for anyone that is deaf, to communicate can be tiring and you need concentration and you need more concentration than if you could hear. Sally I want to ask you again through the screen, and then I'm going take a break, Sally through the screen, what do you miss most, because you could hear?

Sally Harvis: Em well I think one of the things I miss the most is being able to pick the telephone up and phone my daughter and have a really good chat. We just can't do that anymore. I can try and phone her and I can talk away, and then she usually sits with her mobile phone and she texts me most of what she's saying so that I can actually keep up with the conversation. So yes if I wished for something I would like to be able to chat to her. The other thing that I miss quite a lot is music.

Joe Duffy: Hmm.

Sally Harvis: Because I can't share what the people are seeing any more, I can hear somebody singing, but I can't get the words. So it's vital for me to have the CD with all the words included in the sleeve. And I usually sit and I read the words and often my daughter is with me and then she will sing it to me as the same time so I can actually lip read her and then listen to the music and so build up a memory bank of good music sound. Which I think is really important.

Joe Duffy: Ok stay with us all if you can. We'll take a quick, just to say Bernadette and Elaine take a quick break.

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Joe Duffy: 51551 is our text number and is Cait there?

Councillor Cait Keane: Cait here.

Joe Duffy: Cait how are you? Go ahead Cait.

Councillor Cait Keane: I am very good yes. Well I was just listening there to your slot of the deaf and the mini-text and texting service for emergency. And I just wanted to . . .

Joe Duffy: But it doesn't exist as you know, the texting . . .

Councillor Cait Keane: It doesn't exist in Ireland, but it does exist, and I only discovered it myself recently because I have, I'm on the model school for the deaf, which is a school for, a pre-school for Irish Sign Language for young children in North Dublin, well I live in the South Dublin area. But I'm on this Board.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Councillor Cait Keane: And I was interested in this, and I did discover recently that the west Yorkshire area has a 999 text messaging service launched. And it's launched in conjunction with the West Yorkshire Police. And the system there means that people, deaf people with hearing problems of speech impairments, they won't have to rely on other report emergency services. And they can have this, they now have in West Yorkshire a two way text conversation with the police on texting. And then they get the right information. So they have their own dedicated number there.

Joe Duffy: Ok as they have indeed on this island, but it's in Northern Ireland and the way they get around this point, which seems to be the stumbling block for our Department, they say, text messages are not real time technology, which will come as a surprise to a lot of people, though we do understand it.

Councillor Cait Keane: No but, but, . . .

Joe Duffy: But the way they get around it in the PSNI.

Councillor Cait Keane: Exactly.

Joe Duffy: Is that when they get the text from people in the Deaf Community they immediately send back a text saying received your message we will contact you ASAP, thank you.

Councillor Cait Keane: Exactly.

Joe Duffy: And if you don't get that message, you have to try, you know through your own acquaintance with the system that you try another way of contacting, or you keep texting back.

Councillor Cait Keane: Exactly.

Joe Duffy: But that seems to be very straight forward.

Councillor Cait Keane: It is, and like that commitment is there within twenty seconds, they are told, if they don't get the text back, they're to try again, or try another methodology.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Councillor Cait Keane: The other thing as well, I know in West Yorkshire they worked in partnership with Leeds City Council and at the moment I'm on South Dublin County Council and I'm trying to get the South Dublin, now the South Dublin has been very active in that we launched mini-conservers for the deaf for texting into the South Dublin County Council Offices.

Joe Duffy: Oh very good.

Councillor Cait Keane: That's only for, it's not for emergencies, because it doesn't have, you need to have the police involved. So it is a thing that I am taking up now with our new policing, we have a new policing committee in conjunction with South Dublin County Council. So hopefully we'll be able to make some headway on it. I'm disappointed that the actual networks haven't seen their way to get around this, you know because it is a service that's badly needed, you know, so if it can be done in West Yorkshire, it can be done in the North of Ireland, surely to goodness it can be done here as well.

Joe Duffy: Ok that's Councillor . . .

Councillor Cait Keane: We're working on it and we have, with South Dublin and we're trying to see what Leeds County Council did there.

Joe Duffy: Ok that sounds a step forward.

Councillor Cait Keane: Well it is a step forward, and hopefully . . .

Joe Duffy: well as I say the Department of Communications have knocked the idea on the head. Councillor Cait Keane

Councillor Cait Keane: There's a way around everything.

Joe Duffy: Ok Councillor Cait Keane thanks, go raibh maith agat.

Councillor Cait Keane: Thank you very much, bye, bye.

Joe Duffy: Now let me go to Pat. Pat good afternoon 51551 text.

Pat: Good afternoon.

Joe Duffy: Your wife is deaf?

Pat: She is indeed yes. And she's at the moment now she's pregnant, and we don't have much services at all now with regards Fiona now at the moment. Because I work shift work, and if I'm not there, she has no access to an emergency service which is kind of like at this day and age now, it's kind of like not good enough at this stage in this country.

Joe Duffy: How important is texting to you in communicating with your wife Pat?

Pat: Like all the other callers there now, like say texting is like it's an absolute lifeline at this stage for deaf people, and it is basically the best communication that there is in the country or I suppose throughout anyone for deaf people. And like with regards to television and like cinema, there is much subtitling, and RTE is improving. It could be better, but it's not great. Like TV3 only subtitles soaps. They don't subtitle news, weather, anything like that at all. They don't subtitle that. And cinemas, I think Dublin basically there's a cinema, maybe once or twice a week and they do a couple of films, but other than that, outside Dublin you don't have it. So if my wife would like to see a film, she has to wait until it comes out on DVD or we have to travel to Dublin to see it. And it's only on at certain times it's on so it's not good enough, and I think things have to be done and they have to be done quickly.

Joe Duffy: Ok and I know when we used, we did them a lot around the country, RTE had these meetings, the various Director Generals would go round and meet members, and television bosses and radio bosses, and one of the issues that came up was subtitles and I known they have made a serious effort, but I take your point that there's other elements as well, and other media that need to improve, including ourselves as well, as people are hearing with me stumbling over trying to get a frame on how best to communicate with a community that don't by definition hear Liveline. Thanks Pat 51551 text. Let me go to Steve, Steve your partner is profoundly deaf?

Steve: Joe how are you?

Joe Duffy: Good thanks.

Steve: Great, good to talk to you. You're listening Joe, it's just fantastic that you're raising this issue today. And the insight into the deaf community. My partner yes Siobhan is profoundly deaf, and I actually am good friends with Niall who was just onto you a few moments ago.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, hmm.

Steve: Basically Joe in the last week myself and Siobhan have had two incidents which deaf people face like every week, be it in a bank or something like that, where there's just not an awareness of a person who is deaf, you know. In a bank situation a glass screen in front of you trying to do your business.

Joe Duffy: Hmm, hmm.

Steve: People just don't realise how difficult it is for a deaf person, and we, Siobhan was trying to do some business in the bank and she really was not you know understood properly and she tried to say you know please can you step outside to try and, so I can talk to you, lip read, and they really, the awareness was not there, and she has e-mailed the bank in question, and has not gotten a reply yet, you know. Another thing which myself and my partner have been kind of battling the last while and it's not as serious an issue as the emergency services, which is a really big big big issue, is in terms of cinema, people going to the cinema, deaf people going to the cinema, and the whole subtitling thing and the actual, the lack of subtitled screenings, you know, I'm planning to meet with the UCI representative from England in a couple of weeks, and to sit down with them and try and just let them know, I mean deaf people should really be you know included more in terms of cinema. The amount of films being shown, subtitled screenings, and the availability, you know. Just last night we had an incidence we went to see a subtitled screening and the thing went off half way through the movie, you know.

Joe Duffy: Yeah, so the subtitles, ok.

Steve: Like there's a lot of things out there, people just aren't aware of, you know. And again as it's not as serious an issue as the emergency services. But there's so many things out there which people just aren't aware that a person in the deaf world has to face every day. Simple things like going to, dealing with people in shops, banks, you know. I think it is good that you're highlighting this, you know.

Joe Duffy: Ok and it's good that we've established, through technology really, I think for the first time this type of communication. I know it's different, but this type of communications. Steve thanks indeed.

Steve: No problem, thanks Joe.

Joe Duffy: Thanks indeed, thanks to Bernadette who has to leave us at the moment, I think Elaine is still there and Sally is still there, and I'll talk to them both after the break.

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Joe Duffy: Deirdre is in Dublin, Deirdre go ahead.

Deirdre: Hi ya Joe. My dad is deaf. He went deaf when he was fourteen. He got meningitis. He's seventy two now, and basically the lifeline he has is subtitles on the television. And we've recently, he has switched recently from analogue to digital and he's having just a nightmare trying to look at the television to see what's going on, on the programme. RTE and most of the channels don't have the subtitles on the digital. You can just get subtitles on Chanel 4, UTV, BBC1 and BBC2. So it means he has loads of channels that he can't actually watch or see what's gong on.

Joe Duffy: Ok so, now that's an interesting, you are saying analogue television, which is being phased out.

Deirdre: Yes.

Joe Duffy: We will all go digital. And you are saying there is a difference in digital TV with subtitling.

Deirdre: Absolutely yes, with the analogue RTE's service it's not great, but it's absolutely 100% better than it is on digital, and it should be the other way around, really in this day and age. And it is his lifeline.

Joe Duffy: Ok well we will ask about that in here, because I'd say that would come as a challenge if it's true, that digital TV, the subtitling on digital TV is not as good as on analogue.

Deirdre: Yeah and it stops and then it starts, and it's not continuous. Like my dad would be watching it, and then it would just stop, and then it would come back, and like it's coming back at the wrong time, when the next scene has come on the show or whatever.

Joe Duffy: Yeah I know what you mean.

Deirdre: And UPC and NTL, they say it's RTE's problem, and I have been in touch with RTE and they're more or less saying that it's NTL's problem, so we don't know where we stand with it, and it's really bad.

Joe Duffy: Has texting made a difference to your dad?

Deirdre: He's gradually getting there with the texting. Because you know of his age and that.

Joe Duffy: Mobile phones came late, yes.

Deirdre: Yeah exactly, but yeah he would take the odd text message and he would send the odd text message. He finds e-mails great. He's getting into the e-mails and that. But it is very very hard for him. Now he's married to a hearing woman, my mam. And so any kind of communication that needs to be done, she usually does it for him, which is, she's wonderful really really wonderful.

Joe Duffy: And how does she communicate with him Deirdre?

Deirdre: Well she uses sign language. He had to learn sign language when he went deaf. And but he finds the lip reading hard, again when you're born hearing it's very difficult to learn it, you know that way.

Joe Duffy: Yeah, yeah, which is a point made by other people. Thanks indeed Deirdre.

Deirdre: Ok.

Joe Duffy: And regards to your father. Just to say by the way there will be a transcript of this conversation up on our website as soon as we can after the programme to allow people who are deaf to participate and access the conversation. Elaine can I come back to you as someone who's been deaf since birth. Elaine, what are the main issues for the Deaf Community, we've heard about TV and subtitling and obviously the 999 text, but what are the main issues for the deaf community in Ireland today?

Elaine Grehan: How are you again Joe, how's it going.

Joe Duffy: Good.

Elaine Grehan: Sorry I'm just relaying your question to her.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Elaine Grehan: There's poor access, access is very bad to everything, like your previous callers said about subtitling. I agree with them completely. And access to health services is really really really terrible. I mean like there's no interpreters available or they won't provide an interpreter, or maybe a hospital doesn't have awareness training, which they should have. They should learn different ways of communicating. If they want to learn disability training, contact us and we can set it up for them here in the Irish Deaf Society. And it's easily done, it doesn't take too long. And can learn a bit of sign language as well. And it will improve their quality of communication with a deaf person no end.

Joe Duffy: And how do you . . .

Elaine Grehan: As well what that girl was saying, sorry, about texting and texting that sort of thing. There's 3G, and that means basically that I can talk to my husband. I can sign through video phone, with my mobile phone, there's a little screen on it, it records me, no it's not recording, it streams me life and I can chat to my daughter in sign language the whole time and it's grand, it's great, a brilliant invention. It's like a video call on your mobile phone. And really we need to educate people about what technology is out there to help them.

Joe Duffy: And then how do you communicate Elaine if you go say for example to a hospital with an illness in your own body, how do you communicate with the medical staff?

Elaine Grehan: If I, if it's a booked appointment and they know about it and it's booked in advance, I make sure that they book an interpreter. There's, sometimes they don't have a choice of an interpreter, or I don't have the interpreter that I would like, I would like a choice of interpreter, because some of them are accredited and some of them are not. And sometimes they try to write things down. And it doesn't work, and as the previous caller said about the bank, that the glass behind, sometimes you're sitting in a queue and a nurse comes out and says ok can this person come and if they're not signing we don't know, we can't hear our name being called, and it's just, it's just wrong.

Joe Duffy: Tell us the story Elaine of when you had to text a friend in England to ring an ambulance in Wexford?

Elaine Grehan: Again that wasn't me, I work in the Irish Deaf Society, and it was a client. But basically it was a client in Wexford. She had something happen to her back, and it was really sore and she was trying to contact her local hospital, about nothing, for an ambulance, sorry she was trying to get an ambulance to come out to her. So as a last resort she contacted her friends in England. Texted her friends in England. Her friends in England had had to contact the service here in Ireland to get them to contact an ambulance to get to her house in Wexford, from England. So an ambulance did come and it was a happy ending, but I mean it was just lucky that it happened like that.

Joe Duffy: Ok Elaine thanks indeed Elaine, and thanks Bernadette and thanks sally and thanks to the signers, Elaine's signer was Louise Sheeran and with Bernadette was Amanda Cogan and Sally we were talking to her through G-mail and thanks to Sorcha upstairs who was listening to me and whacking that out as quick as she could. Sadie good afternoon in Laois.

Sadie: Good afternoon Joe, how are you?

Joe Duffy: Good. Your sister?

Sadie: Yes I've a sister that's deaf and dumb. And she went to St Mary's school in Cabra. And she can't talk at all. She's deaf, but because of her deafness she has no speech. She can say things, but I mean she has no accent or anything like that. But she was in St Mary's from she was three.

Joe Duffy: Right.

Sadie: And we all lived down the country. So she stayed in Dublin when she finished there and started to work, and we all found it very difficult with her because we couldn't communicate with her. We'd have to drive up and down to Dublin on a regular basis, the family, just to make sure that she was all right.

Joe Duffy: And when did you discover she was deaf? When did your parents discover?

Sadie: They discovered when she was about a year and a half. They found out that she wasn't kind of answering them when they'd call her. And then they took her to the doctor and it was clarified then that she was deaf. But the only method of communication with her, she's married now to a deaf boy. And they have three children. They had a very difficult time with the first child because they couldn't communicate with that first child.

Joe Duffy: Are their three children hearing?

Sadie: Hearing, all perfect. And they're actually grown up now.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

Sadie: And they're three beautiful children. But it was very very difficult at that time. The only, they got some kind of a machine in the house in at one stage, that they were trying to work through, but it didn't work because everyone hadn't the same methods. And the only method of communication for them is the text. Because they have, she has a brother in America and she has a sister in Arizona, and she has brothers and sisters in England.

Joe Duffy: And it has made an incredible difference.

Sadie: And it made such a difference to her life. She knows everything about all of us, all of the time. Because we all text here.

Joe Duffy: Yeah, great.

Sadie: And we can do lip reading as well. And we can also do some of the sign language.

Joe Duffy: Ok, ok.

Sadie: And it's just that she never had, my big problem with the whole thing was that there was never any help for her.

Joe Duffy: And if she needed a doctor for her three, I know her children could hear, but her husband couldn't hear.

Sadie: No.

Joe Duffy: The two of them were deaf.

Sadie: No.

Joe Duffy: If she needed help for her children, if God forbid she was in that situation, how did she manage?

Sadie: She had to just take them off, and they didn't drive. She just had to take them, walk to wherever the doctor was.

Joe Duffy: My God.

Sadie: Yes. And it was very difficult for them. And . . .

Joe Duffy: Because they didn't have texting even in those days.

Sadie: That was before the texting came in.

Joe Duffy: Yeah, because they couldn't use a phone because they couldn't, exactly.

Sadie: No, but now there's a big change of course, their children will help them.

Joe Duffy: Yeah of course, of course, I'm just trying to give people a glimpse of what it was like when we only had phones. Now we have got this incredible, incredible technology.

Sadie: Exactly yeah, and she was in hospital there some time ago, in Beaumont, and she found it very difficult to communicate with the nurses. She was very very sad in herself. But they moved her then from the ward she was in, up to another one, where there was either a doctor or a nurse had sign language. And that made a big difference to her.

Joe Duffy: Yeah ok.

Sadie: Because everything, she was writing down everything, and she was getting a bit kind of frustrated.

Joe Duffy: Ok Sadie thanks.

Sadie: If they could have some other method as well it would be great.

Joe Duffy: Ok, ok, text your sister if you could please, I don't know where she's living now and tell her that the transcript of this programme will be on our website if she wants to participate. Thanks indeed Sadie. John Penrose, then Joe, then Bridget, I'm loaded here. John good afternoon.

Sadie: Thank you bye bye.

John Penrose: How are you?

Joe Duffy: Good, go ahead John.

John Penrose: I'm grand. No just two key words came up there, the, one of the last male speakers used the word awareness. And it was the first time it was mentioned in the programme. I think this is one of the things that is sadly lacking in general for example St Mary's school, that the last lady was referring to, I spent about five, six years down there, just voluntarily but I spent six years down there with the swimmers. And basically I suppose they had classes as part of their schooling, they had swimming classes and the best five or six in the class, and they in school, I would take for an extra hour and a half every day, to give them extra training. But I also incorporated them into the swimming club of the local swimming club which I was involved. And there was no problem. I would have say six of the profoundly deaf girls down at the pool, and six or seven of the boys and girls from the main club up here. And they had no communication problems, because they were sharing something in common. And they all had, were extremely good at lip reading, but the frustration that the suffered most was that the, like Catherine was one of the top swimmers there and she used to, they used to say to me why don't you learn the sign language, and I'd say I don't have to. I can understand your voice, the sound you're making, they varied from very clear to very difficult to understand. But I understood them because you made time for it. And so did the fellow teenagers who were in the club, because they also made time for it. But the frustration they would suffer is when they, this is why they would go off and then do their sign language themselves, despite the fact that they were perfect lip readers.

Joe Duffy: Ok.

John Penrose: But I was never aware of it until I was on a flight to London with Catherine, we were going over to Crystal Palace for a week's training. And we had a very turbulent flight. And I wasn't so, I wasn't comfortable, most people on the plane weren't. And we were circling and Catherine was conscious of the changes in the sounds on the flight. And she turned around, tapped me and said to me, what's happening? Both of my ears had popped and I couldn't lip read and I said to here, repeat, say it again. And she said what's happening? And I said Catherine I think you're saying happening, we're waiting to land, but I can't hear you my two ears have popped. And she started laughing. Took out a piece of paper and wrote down, now you know what it's like to be bloody deaf.

Joe Duffy: Ok, good lesson, good lesson, thanks indeed John Penrose, that's John, I thought I recognised that voice, John Penrose, formally of this parish, did great pioneering work in this area. Ok I see a list of people want to participate and raise issues, that have not been raised I think in a long long time, for obvious reasons about the Deaf Community, interpreters and hospital stories and various things. I presume we're going to go back to that tomorrow. In the meantime today's transcript for everybody will be on our website and remember there is for other people abroad who have the gift of hearing, the podcast is available as well. We're back tomorrow at 13:45, Sinead Mooney produced and Derek Mooney is next.

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